As shoulder pads are replaced by dolman sleeves only to be replaced again by shoulder pads…and English Country style is replaced by minimalism is replaced by Cottage Chic…as bistro food gives way to nouvelle cuisine gives way to comfort food, what goes around comes around.
And so it is with dressage saddles. As it reaches its superstructured, overstuffed and over-intellectualized limit, the Ubersaddle may have reached the end of its useful life.
What makes me think so? The new, old-fashioned saddle from Passier — The Freemove Dynamic Dressage Saddle, the popularity of the Stubben endorsed by Catherine Haddad, and the louder and ever-louder “buzz” from people discovering or rediscovering the joys of riding in closer contact.
I think every rider wants to be the best rider he or she can be, and an Ubersaddle can make it — or appear to make it — easier. A superstructured saddle puts a rider’s seat and legs exactly where they’re supposed to be in order to be effective. Unfortunately, once they’re there, that’s exactly where they’re staying. Which prevents riders from moving with their horses.
The problems usually arise at the trot, when you see bobbing heads and rocking torsos and undulating lower backs, because the movement of the horse has to be absorbed somewhere in the riders’ body, and if the legs and seat are blocked, the movement will come out somewhere else. At canter, an Ubersaddle with too small a sweet spot can make even a good rider bounce her buns up and down in the saddle like a beginner.
When riders feel they need to improve their positions, they’re blocked in that effort by the blocks and deep seats of their Ubersaddles — the very things that gave them the illusion of having a better seat than they actually had. That’s when the rubber hits the road, as they say. How can you alter your position if you can’t move? And how can you improve the biomechanics if the mechanics have no motion?
It’s not just lower level dressage riders who are suffering. Recently, I saw an upper level competitor riding in a new saddle. It was beautiful. It was clearly custom. It had long, exposed blocks that perfectly matched the angle of her thighs and extended to the bottoms of her kneecaps. She had a perfect position at the halt, her diminutive derriere nestled in the deepest part of the saddle, with the high cantle rising elegantly behind her. If she put her hand behind her back, she’d have the three fingers’ worth of clearance she is supposed to have. Except that in the case of the Ubersaddle, this measurement doesn’t matter, because the rise of the cantle is so steep, it doesn’t correspond in any way to the room the rider has in the seat.
Legs which have a minimal angle at the knee may be long and elegant, but are less effective in absorbing the movement, because the knee can’t absorb much movement if the angle is too open (ask any jumper), and the hip joint can’t absorb much motion if the leg can’t swing back and forth a bit because it’s held back as far as it can be by the Uberblock of an Ubersaddle.
Not only does the restriction of the Ubersaddle cause the bobbing heads and rocking torsos and all the other unfortunate compensations for a limited range of motion in the lower part of the body it also prevents us from seeing the “invisible aids” we used to see, which were only possible in saddles that allowed a fuller range of motion on the part of the rider. Ironic? Yes, but biomechanically sound.
It’s not that I’m against knee blocks or deep seats or even a really wide gullet, if the saddle fits the horse. I love riding in my Hennig, and it certainly qualifies as an Ubersaddle. But I don’t employ those exposed blocks as thigh and knee rests. I use them the way a rider in a ring uses the rail — they’re a guide to where my leg should be, and if my thigh or knee touches them, it’s a reminder to put my leg back where it belongs. But I don’t have a long femur and I’m petite, so it’s easier for me to use the blocks as reminders not restrictors.
Even though I ride in a 16.5″ close contact saddle (unless it’s a Tad Coffin), my Hennig is an 18″. It’s the only way I can get a “sweet spot” large enough in the deep-seated Hennig to allow me to move when my horse moves. If I’m riding in a non-Ubersaddle, I’m in a 17″ or maybe a 17 1/2″.
That’s part of the problem with choosing an Ubersaddle and why riders end up locked in while riding. If you normally ride in a 17″ or an 18″ close contact, you’ll need a larger seat size in an Ubersaddle, in order to give you the larger sweet spot you need. And that 19″ or 20″ or larger Ubersaddle may sit too far back on your horse’s loin for comfort or safety. So you compromise, and put yourself in a smaller saddle than you need. And that’s when all the trouble begins.
There are other Ubsersaddle problems as well. There’s nothing wrong with having a wide gullet, but depending on your horse’s conformation, a wide gullet can be too wide, just as a narrow gullet can be too narrow. Some of the Ubersaddles have such wide gullets that the weight of the saddle rests directly on top of the horse’s ribs, and applies pressure to the connective tissue atop those ribs. I’m sure this effect is counteracted by the large surface area and the cushiness of the overstuffed panels, but this is far from the perfect solution for saddle fitting.
The same is true of the much-vaunted gussetted panel and the claims that gussetted panels are best for the horse’s back because there is more weight distribution on the panels. Well, that isn’t necessarily true either. There are horses with curved backs that go better in ungussetted panels and there are even horses with flat backs but a lot of bounce in the back that prefer ungussetted, upswept panels.
The fact is that horses are built differently and move differently and probably have different likes and dislikes for the way things feel on them, just the way we do. There are many different theories underlying saddle design and saddle fit, but the horse is always right. It seems to me that there are more back problems than ever, though, since the advent of saddles that are supposed to solve that very problem.
Which is why it’s nice to see a new saddle with some of the old solutions. The Passier Freemove boasts a flat seat and pencil knee rolls and it’s got a fairly thin, non-gussetted panel. It also comes in three shades of brown, which as we know, is the new black. Passier says the saddle was developed in cooperation with Antje Bandholz, whom Passier calls the famous French “equestrianism” trainer but whose website is in German. There are a lot of references to Baucher on her home page along with Leichtigkeit (lightness), so that explains the “French” reference.
I’m wondering…do any of my readers remember that there were “saddles made for women” long before Schleese made the claim? Twenty years ago, it was Albion’s claim to fame, when the saddles were still known as Mansion House. What goes around comes around.
Back to simplicity, it’s a good thing! I rode in one of those ubersaddles ONCE, and I hated it, for the same reason I can’t ride in a Western saddle comfortably: I feel trapped. I prefer a close contact saddle with as little padding as I (and my horse) can be comfortable riding with. If I had my way, I’d ride with only my bareback pad all the time simply because I like to feel my horse beneath me and I like to be able to adjust my body for any situation and feel like if I need to bail out NOW!!! I won’t be trapped.
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If you think the Western saddles are bad then don’t ever try the Aussie saddles! Talk about trapped!
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Fads come and fads go; what works stays. I remember everyone (myself included) were scrambling to find the old Passier saddles when the overstuffed ones became the latest fad.
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The saddle can’t ride the horse for you…
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Well put.
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Just saw this blog when I typed in ‘minimalist dressage saddle’ on Yahoo! search. I agree with every word you wrote on the ‘ubersaddle’ – I’ve owned a few and felt trapped and overwhelmed by padding. Also, the blocks are either the wrong shape or in the wrong spot. The Passier Freemove looks a lot like the old GT model, which I just found used a few months ago. Now, if I can just get the tree adjusted correctly, I think I have found my forever saddle. 🙂 Again, thank you for this blog post!
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Hi Karen — Thank you so much for your comment. It’s nice to hear that more people are discovering how much easier it is to ride in a more old-fashioned saddle and that the saddle makers are getting hip to that. Congratulations on finding a winner!
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Hey, Katie! Seeing the recent comments on your Ubersaddle blog reminded me that I should post a followup on the Passier GT saddle. The GT has a flat seat, upswept panels, pencil blocks and minimal gussets. You would think my very slightly croup high gelding would like this but he has made it very clear that he hates it. He likes the wide gullet channel and flat, gussetted panels of the Passier Optimum, another close contact saddle. Unfortunately, that saddle is not comfortable for me – I cannot find the sweet spot and the design of the block and flap require a very straight leg. As you mentioned in your blog, a rider needs bend in the leg to absorb the movement of and be able to move with the horse. sigh Guess I am still saddle shopping!
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Hi Karen – Thanks for your follow up. I know I’ve mentioned how I hate saddle shopping (it took up two blog posts some time ago). I’d be interested to hear what works for you, when you find it (and what doesn’t, until then!).
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I’ve never followed a blog before-but I agree so wholeheartedly with what you’ve written about this saddle..I’m here! I have looked for a ‘close contact’ dressage saddle for years. I just purchased a 3 month old Trakehner filly, and although she is still just a tiny beauty, I have started doing research on what I can find via saddles. Love this Passier! You so accurately described every reason for why this saddle seems like a great fit. And I couldn’t care less about trends/fads. So thank you for having such an educated and fairly written blog!
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Thank you for joining in the discussion, Helen. It’s great to hear a new voice on the topic. I just saw an ad for the latest Passier dressage saddle — the Sirius, that looks intriguing.
I’m still riding in my Tad Coffin dressage, but there are a handful of close contact saddles that you might try. The Niedersuss is one, and if you can find an old Butet monoflap dressage and don’t mind a wide twist, it’s the closest feel of any saddle. I have yet to try the Stubben Genesis that I mention in this post, but everything everyone says about it refers to the close contact feel.
Congratulations on your filly! I (and my readers, I’m sure) would be interested in hearing what other close contact dressage saddles you might find, and what you think.
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Good article and great thoughts. The problem is that I simply cannot find a Passier saddle fitter with access to the Freemove in the U.S. I even called Dover saddlery and was told that there “may” be one available but I would have to purchase the saddle outright, try it, and then send it back. For me that is just not good enough. I want a fitter on site to check all aspects of how this saddle fits my mare before I spend that kind of money. I have had problems with poor saddle fit in the past.
On a side note. My trainer rides in an ancient Passier Baum, which is hard as a rock because it was made from old-style bridle leather (think briefcase leather). I did contact Passier and they said if I could provide a model/serial # then they would custom make one for me even though her saddle is over 30 years old.
But, there again, I would like to have a fitter involved.
(sigh!)
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Hi Kelly – Great to hear from you! I’m sorry to hear that Passier isn’t supporting its saddles the way it might here in the US. Perhaps a local independent (i.e., doesn’t work for a saddle company) saddle fitter would be able to evaluate the fit of a saddle for you, without having to use Passier’s own fitter. This might even be an advantage…
I have ridden in the Baum myself, and love it. I don’t mind a rock hard flat saddle…as you’ve probably picked up from reading my saddle posts here on the blog!
There are many companies that specialize in used saddles, and if you can narrow down some choices, and set aside a portion of your budget to shipping, it can be the best way to find a saddle you like that also fits your mare.
I highly recommend the equimeasure pad to fit…and then, if you’re close to anywhere where they stock a large selection of saddles, new and used, hold the plastic profile of your horse’s back up against the saddle and see if it passes the “10 points of saddle fitting.” Then, you’ll have largely eliminated those that don’t fit from the ones you get shipped to you on trail.
Just some thoughts from a fellow dressage saddle sympathizer.
Best of luck, and let us know what happens!
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On a whim I decided to contact a saddle shop in the next county. They have been around for ages and the owner helped me once with my tough to fit eventer. A Freemove is on the way and I will pick it up next week. I’ll keep you posted.
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Great post. The problem lies in trying to get a Freemove to try here in the U.S. I have been unable to locate a saddle fitter that is familiar with Passier enough to fit and custom order this saddle. I even contacted Dover Saddlery and was told there “may” be a Freemove available. I would however, have to pay for it outright, pay for shipping, try the saddle – sans fitter, and then return it.
This simply won’t work for me. I want a fitter to make sure this saddle will work for my mare, especially if I am going to spend this much money.
On another note. My trainer has a 30+ year old Baum and Passier said they would custom make the same saddle for me if I could provide the serial #/model. But, there again I would be guessing on saddle fit and I’m not going to take the chance.
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Excellent.
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There is periodically discussion about the pros and cons of “uber” saddles on the Chronicle of the Horse Dressage forum. As with all the forums on COTH, the discussion is very opinionated and often nasty but the two opposing sides appear to be those that think riders are ‘cheating’ by using uber saddles and those that think uber saddles help them ride better.
I really think saddle fit is very personal – what works well for one person could be awful for another. I now ride in a Black County Eloquence, which some people would classify as uber. I do prefer minimalist saddles but constantly struggled to find one that fit me and my horse. The BC saddle is is the only saddle that allows me to ride with a relaxed leg and not fight to maintain my balance and horse is happy. Compared to many uber saddles out there, the BC is probably uber-light. 🙂 KarenRO
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Hi Karen — I haven’t been following the discussions on COTH recently but I think it’s clear where my opinion lies. Of course, a happy horse is the most important thing!
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Thanks for a great article! I have had a lot of saddle dramas in recent years. With less room to move in the “ubersaddle” there is also less margin for error when choosing one that works for you and especially if you cant go out repeatedly ordering custom! Add to that the training of young horses whose balance can vary moment to moment and there seems to be a lot of unecessary fighting for balance! A few months ago I found a 20 year old Black Passier Hannover that had been used a handful of times. Just love that saddle! Riding and balance is easy like when I was a kid on big open saddles. Being so close contact makes my big moving young horse a breeze to follow too. I hope more people realise what you have written here. There is an immense amount of saddle snobbery around and I dont think it is helping our riders.
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Hi Jaimee — Thank you so much for your comment. You bring up so many important points, and additional reasons to look beyond the ubersaddle. I love the fact that you mention how having what you describe as a “big open” saddle can really help in the training of a young, big moving horse! I’ve found that to be the case as well. Let’s hope that as more people see how riders can improve — and their horses can improve — in a flatter, close contact saddle, that more people will at least try them and see that there’s an alternative to the ubersaddle! Thanks again Jaimee!
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I understand the rear upswept panel is an old design and what was old is new again. Just understand that those “old” designs created a rocker and put pressure on a horses back. You are looking for even consistent contact with the panel no matter what the design is. Also the rear gusset depth is an indication of your horse’s confirmation. For downhill horses you need less, uphill you need more. Why, so you have a level balanced seat! Beware of banana shaped panels. Why, because there is no consistent level contact. When the saddle if placed in the proper position on the horse and is the proper tree, panel size and design and flocked correctly for the horse you should have achieved even consistent contact. If the saddle doesn’t make contact sufficiently in the rear it can cause it to move forward up your horse or bounce or it will rock back and forth. Uncomfortable for the horse and for the rider! Either way you will not be able to effectively ride as you will not be in a level balance seat and in the sweet spot of the saddle. All saddles have a balance point and if the saddle is not fitted properly with all the considerations above the rider and horse will be out of sync and most likely sore.
Katie Shapiro
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Hi Katie — Thanks for weighing in with your opinion! As they say, that’s what makes horse races!
I beg to differ, however, with the idea that one size fits all in terms of saddle design.
Every upswept panel isn’t a “banana panel.” And not every saddle with an upswept panel rocks. Certainly, it would rock if it were badly fit. That’s where proper saddle fit — for both horse and rider — comes in.
Same with consistent contact. Consistent contact does not have to be in the form of gusseted panels.
The problem with concluding that “one size fits all” in terms of horses, is that more than one horse will come along…at some point…to prove you wrong. I’ve seen it with gusseted panels, more than once.
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Hi Katie,
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. The OLD upswept panel design was banana shaped and rocked. Also in my post I was not saying one size fits all. It seems from reading that one would conclude the upswept panel is. What I am saying is that depending on how your horse moves mechanically and this is very important as some horses backs drop as they move so you need to build up to the saddle from the back so it does not slip forward, you need to fit the horse first with a specific panel design based on the horse’s confirmation and mechanics. The horse will always tell you by movement and behavior what will fit properly after a static fitting. The rider should not drive what should fit the horse on the rider’s comfort alone. Sometime what you think may fit may not and the horse will tell you. Sometimes it is very easy and no problems! I’ve always subscribed to less is more for horse and rider but there may be a time depending on the situation of confirmation of horse and rider that you need specific options on the saddle to resolve those issues until fitness is obtained and can be removed. Sometimes it can be supplemented with a little shim or use of a half pad that can be removed later. Fitting issues are dynamic as horses are living beings and change through fitness, seasons and feeding issues.
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Those interested in further exploring the idea of gussets vs. upswept panels vs. banana panels should read this post from Jochen Schleese on barn mice:
http://www.barnmice.com/profiles/blogs/saddle-fit-and-banana-panels
And while I love the Schleese connexion, it also didn’t fit the last horse I had that hated gusseted panels! So, at the end of the day, you have to know how you ride, how your horse moves, and then find a saddle that fits. My “saddle saga” posts share how difficult this can be, even when you know yourself as a rider and have experience in finding saddles that work for a particular horse — along with a big budget!
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It’s a peculiar glitch in wordpress that sometimes replies come out of order. So if you’re still with us, and are not one of the two Katies currently discussing the pros and cons of upwept panels, not only do you have incredible patience but you should also know that you are reading our comments out of order. The comment directly above was in response to the other Katie’s first comment, and her second comment was in response to my response. All right, we have that out of the way and can move on to more important things. Saddles!
I want to thank you, Katie, for clarifying your point of view. If I did misunderstand what you said in your original post, forgive me. But we still disagree. The old panel designs were not all banana panels — and they all didn’t rock and they all didn’t put pressure on the horse’s back (which is what you said in your first comment).
How do I know about those old saddles? I was riding in the 60s and 70s when those “old” saddles were new. I’m guessing you’re too young to be very familiar with them. Am I right? That’s fine — in fact, I’m envious, especially as my back has now removed me permanently from any saddle. But if you haven’t see a lot of horses move in those saddles or riders learn how to ride in them, your knowledge is more theoretical than practical.
It’s certainly true that “back in the day,” the only thing that mattered was the rider’s comfort. But the very design of those saddles — their light weight, their lack of gussets, their relatively small area of contact on the horse’s back — was what made them so great, and why a lot of horses loved them and went so well in them. It’s also what taught riders how to ride better. For anyone who’s skipped over the link to Schleese’s post on barn mice, now’s the time to read it. He has grey hair too. (In fact, it might be white at this point, as it’s been a few years since I’ve said “hello.”)
Here’s where we do agree, Katie — and I’m so happy to hear you say this — the horse will tell you what works (the difficulty for most riders is listening). And less is more.
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Hi Katie,
Let’s just agree to disagree. And you are incorrect that I am too young to have ridden in those saddles! A baby boomer and still kicking on. I can remember when you rode without a saddle pad, string girth, and roached your horse’s mane. I have to say I even started out riding Western and quickly switched when the horn knocked the wind out of me when I tried to jumping in the darn thing. My knowledge is not just theoretical.
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No need to get your mane in a tangle, Katie. You seem to have trouble remembering what was said — either by you or by me — but yes, we definitely do disagree. Happy trails!
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